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Bait and switch
Just had a bad experience with a member here. I was trying to offload some work since I am backed up but my client liked my sample and wants a bunch more. Member lists $0.25 per cm3 but when asked for a quote they want 3 times that. When I question that and offer them the rate the posted they become indignant, offer to sell me raw filament alone for that, and start lecturing my about how hard it is to get an $6000 dollar printer to print a 8cm3 part what with all the thermal deviations that have to be taken into account.
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elpulpo - While I sympathise with your plight, @foofoodog, I find it hard to empathise since I only dream of having so much work that I need to offload it. Not sure I'd be very keen to gobble down two bucks worth of crumbs off the table either. Just sayin'.
9 years, 6 months ago
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n23d - Well I charge a setup fee. It takes a certain amount of time to set up a print to get good results. The material is only a part of the cost of a print. Usually there is setup, material and machine time and profit margin that goes into the cost. Unfortunately it is not possible to capture all that in a simple number. The whole point of asking for a quote is to give the provider an opportunity to factor everything in and give you a price. If you think he wants too much there are many other people willing to make the prints. You do not have to accept his offer.
9 years, 6 months ago
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foofoodog - @elpulpo 2 bucks times 20 pieces. But, if you aren't willing to do one off work, the kind of work 3D printers are made for, then maybe put a minimum price job size on your listing, or negotiate your price down based on volume. I would sell these at cost anyway since I pick up a little design work along the way and like to think I am establishing a relationship with the customer.
9 years, 6 months ago
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foofoodog - @n23d, fine, if that is what it takes for you to do it then quote that. Frankly my setup costs are retracting the old filament, feeding the new filament until it runs "clear", choosing a slicer profile, slicing and hitting print. Not sure what you all are fussing with, sounds tough
9 years, 6 months ago
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foofoodog - At $0.25 per cm3 for ABS that is at least a 100% markup on materials. That alone should cover whatever dances anyone has to do to get their printer to play nice. I do not pay a cab driver to get an oil change and align his wheels, I do not pay US Air to have GE and Boeing remove volcanic ash from the turbines. I pay the going rate and that is a flat rate. And this site lists a flat rate. If you won't do it for a flat rate then you to are doing a bait and switch.
9 years, 6 months ago
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foofoodog - I am starting to think there is no reason to use someone on this site for extra work when they go all prima donna on you right off the bat. Oh, but foo, there are many considerations when getting a tree frog to print, we have to do a custom setup and calibrate for that, there will be additional costs. Sheesh, I think I would almost rather pay shapeways and not have to hear about it.
9 years, 6 months ago
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elpulpo - You finished?
9 years, 6 months ago
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foofoodog - Speak of the devil.
9 years, 6 months ago
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elpulpo - I'm sorry @foofoodog but I really don't think it's worth my time explaining to you why I think you're getting all frothed up about a situation that's inevitable. You think you're right and that's all there is to it. I can see your point-of-view. I just don't agree with it. You don't see mine and accuse people of malpractice and self-importance. What on earth do you expect?
9 years, 6 months ago
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tjones - http://i.imgur.com/agJIP.gif
9 years, 6 months ago
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vinnie90 - ^^^ Michael Jackson....lmao.

I cant keep my nose out of things...lol. Everyone has a method that they like. We all have our reasons for it.

The only reason we charge for setup fee is because that is time on the job. Every machine shop, printing shop, etc. I know charges that. Because that is time out your day that your are doing for your customer that needs to be charged. In reality.... To do everything that you listed above could take an hour. Wouldn't you like to get paid for that?

Also the cab driver does charge you for the oil change. The charge rate is in the fee. If not then when the car needs an oil change they would have to pay it out of pocket...
9 years, 6 months ago
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ashley@3dprintvancouver.com - My clients come back to me because I put more effort into their parts than "retracting the old filament, feeding the new filament and hitting print". Consequently, I produce exceptional parts that are suitable for their intended use. Price as you see fit, and so will the rest of us.
9 years, 6 months ago
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foofoodog - @ashley@3dprintvancouver.com
That is all well and good but it is not the point, The point is, is your extra special service built into your flat rate cost or do you negotiate that each and every time? From what you say I doubt I can have you make anything for the price you list here of $0.25cm3 and so I propose that is very misleading. And you have no disclaimer on your profile that states setup and consulting fees are to be expected. Note that other posters on this thread went and changed their cm3 rates to be many times greater after posting here so I guess here they wised up some.
9 years, 6 months ago
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ashley@3dprintvancouver.com - MakeXYZ's pricing model is very limited, no options for set up fees or anything other than price / cm3. I charge by machine time, not by part volume. My prices are listed clearly and transparently on my profile, always have been.
9 years, 6 months ago
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foofoodog - My opinion is that MakeXYZ's pricing model is meant to make 3d print service homogenous and mainstream and not a boutique operation. If you are getting business your way then good for you. Me, I am looking for a machine operator at a service bureau on here, not a beauty consultant.
9 years, 6 months ago
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elpulpo - @foofoodog Why then are you looking for a machine operator at a service bureau when the name of the site is MAKExyz? The clue's in the name.
9 years, 6 months ago
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foofoodog - GTFO, this is a clearing house for spare capacity. Not to worry my pointy headed friend, with your cm3 price I would want to get free cappuccino and croissant while I wait.
9 years, 6 months ago
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ashley@3dprintvancouver.com - It's an interesting philosophical point worth debating. I don't agree that the particular pricing model that any operator uses makes them a service bureau or not, mainstream or not. What will make 3D printing mainstream is simply the end price and speed at which custom parts can be acquired. Most orders that I receive are $25-$100. That's an unheard of price for made-to-order parts. Before I bought my printers, I requested quotes from traditional rapid prototyping companies and they were always closer to $1000. A customer recently paid me to print adapters for old film canisters that were out of production. What would have been her option before desktop 3D printing?

All of this leads me back to the reason I found your original post objectionable - it seems like your primary complaint is that you couldn't get someone to print your overflow at the price you wanted. According to your description, there was no bait and switch. You requested a quote, received a quote, and didn't like the price. A bait and switch would be if they quoted you one price and then billed another. If you've got so much work that you need to subcontract, then just invest in another printer and run your business the way you want.
9 years, 6 months ago
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elpulpo - I'd happily give you something to suck on too, buddy
9 years, 6 months ago
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elpulpo - I would say you took the words right out of my mouth, @ashley but your last post was far more eloquent that I feel inclined to be in this instance.
9 years, 6 months ago
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foofoodog - @ashley@3dprintvancouver.com It is not the quote I found objectionable, it was the rude response I got when I asked for an explanation of the quote.

And you are wrong, a bait and switch is advertising a product at one price and never having any product available at that price. So you work for $8 / hour, roughly $1 per cm3 but your listing says $0.25/cm3 which is blatantly false and skews the listings. Though you do state the cost clearly in your profile. So you need to change your listing to be $1/cm3.

What this site needs to do is allow you to also state that you want $25 up front on any order no matter the size. Kind of like when eBay changed to listing items with cost+shipping to deal with the abuse they had.
9 years, 6 months ago
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elpulpo - In this community, we tend to make suggestions for improvements. It's not OUR site, so we have no direct control over the information that's requested when compiling our profiles. If we suggest an improvement and it is auctioned it will be because MakeXYZ in general and Nathan in particular consider that the change is in the interests of MakeXYZ, it's customers and the makers who list their services here. If you have a suggestion then I suggest you put it to Nathan. Just one recommendation however: I would make it a suggestion, rather than tell MakeXYZ what they "should do" as their estimation of what's in their best interests may differ from your own.
9 years, 6 months ago
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bmmal - On many commercial machines the cost of the materials used is impossible to put into 1 number. Most commercial machines use some sort of raft under the print. The raft size depends on the footprint of the part which depends on the print orientation. The print orientation depends on whether you are going for a cheap and aesthetic only model or trying to maximize the strength of a certain feature in the model. Additionally some commercial machines require support material (what the rafts our made out of too) ie there is no option to turn it off.

What if I want to base my profit margin on how long the model takes to print? That's a fair way of pricing since a 10cc thin flat plate will print a lot faster than a 10cc vertical rod would.... I should be compensated for the machine wear, power, and opportunity loss that resulted from having to print a tall vertical model.

Therefore, a reasonable option is to list the model material cost to the maker. Then you also have set up fees, model repair, etc etc. It really makes more sense to do custom quotes.

Another aspect of all this is that makexyz assumes models are in mm when it does estimates... what if the customer has an inch model? Or what I see frequently is models that have holes, inverted normals, etc can show up as really tiny volumes. So the customer may think "oh wow this is dirt cheap" but in reality it's an error...by your logic you could end up printing a huge model and basically have to do it for free.....
9 years, 6 months ago
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foofoodog - @bmmal yeah but then we are talking about you being competition with the likes of shapeways and being around or above their prices. I believe they build all the muss and fiddle into their prices and spare the customer the gory details. If you have a stratasys, then, well, good for you.
9 years, 6 months ago
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elpulpo - Mate, if you think I'm in competition with a company that operates on 2 continents, has Philips behind it, employs more than 100 people and can raise $30M, it just shows how out of touch you are. If a potential client can get his print made by Shapeways cheaper that I can supply it, and is prepared to wait, I advise him to do so.
9 years, 6 months ago
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foofoodog - @elpulpo will maybe not you but for ashley@3dprintvancouver.com her price of $1 per cm3 puts her very close to the price shapeways quotes for the same part, and her 25 dollar setup costs puts her over. It is what the market will bear I suppose, for now, get while the getting is good.
9 years, 6 months ago
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bmmal - I spare the customers the details too... just in the form of a custom quote. I clearly state on my page that the prices provided by makexyz's auto system are not accurate. Yes, I do have a Stratasys machine, but I intend to build a custom machine that is more flexible. When I get that machine working I fully intend to build rafts out of a support material for all parts. It's the best way to make sure the layer planes in the part are parallel and at the right distance from your xy system. Maybe I am competitive with Shapeways, I really don't know. But I know I'm a lot cheaper than Red Eye and I can't imagine spending the time I do on other people's projects and not making what I make.
9 years, 6 months ago
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